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Build talk:Rt/any Defensive Spirits
This is not really a new build, but an attempt at merging all the other defensive spirits builds.--Grandmaster Chen 17:04, 6 August 2009 (UTC) : in that case i think you should just ask to merge all of the spirit builds instead of making one or maybe make a guide :s -mo0ter 17:54, 6 August 2009 (UTC) :: Merge tags have been on the AP Spirit Spammer and the Defensive Spirit Lord (two builds using the exact same idea of the 3 protection spirits) build pages for a while now, but nothing much has been done about it. I decided to put them all together with a few more optional skills.--Grandmaster Chen 18:02, 6 August 2009 (UTC) :::Thing is, who would want someone running this build on their team? It provides fragile protection whilst using up a party slot that could be filled by someone with a more useful build. Kracatoan 12:25, 9 August 2009 (UTC) ::::15 damage reduction, 75% chance to block and a 10% max health cap on enemy attacks is decent, especially when it works on every party member. The AP Spirit Spammer was rated 'Good' by several other players so I'm obviously not the only one who thinks this.--Grandmaster Chen 12:37, 9 August 2009 (UTC) :::::PvX is vetted by the community btw. Spirits in HM are just bad seeing as AI goes for them and tears them to shreds leaving you useless. Kracatoan 12:41, 9 August 2009 (UTC) ::::::That's why Summon Spirits is an optional. And Spirits are not bad HM, I mean take a look at the Mobile Spirits build- I farm on HM with that!--Grandmaster Chen 12:43, 9 August 2009 (UTC) :::::::Farming is entirely different to doing missions/VQ in HM Kracatoan 12:46, 9 August 2009 (UTC) ::::::::Farming was just an example actually, for I have completed HM missions and vanquished with the mobile spirits build- chuck in Signet of Spirits, Anguish, Vamp, Pain, Bloodsong, Painful Bond, Spirit Siphon, and of course summon spirits and you have one hell of a devastating build. This build can do pretty well HM too.--Grandmaster Chen 12:50, 9 August 2009 (UTC) :::::::::Spirit spamming is something which looks good, but isn't. SoS doesn't work properly, spirits change targets all the time and form pathetic blocking walls. I know spirit spamming is appealing because it is so easy, but if that is what you want just run some silly rit MM. Kracatoan 12:53, 9 August 2009 (UTC) Well you obviously have little experience dealing with offensive spirit spamming. Only fools use spirits as blocking walls, good spirit spammers use their spirits for massive damage with painful bond and cast summon spirits if they are in trouble. Go on, run the build I just listed, if you still think Spirit wranglers are no good after that then you obviously are not playing them properly.--Grandmaster Chen 12:58, 9 August 2009 (UTC) :FYI, I only mentioned SPirit Walls because that had been suggested by someone on PvX not long ago. And anyway, there is a difference between what works and is 'good' and that which will play an active part in your party. Kracatoan 13:10, 9 August 2009 (UTC) :: It is funny how people hate that build. You know what? 1 Monk, 1 Offensive Spirit Spammer, 1 of THIS, and 1 Spirit Spammer using Preservation, Restoration, Recovery and Rejuvanation (or WE is that spirit that heals over time). You have got the greatest Offensive / Defensive team core. Add 2 nuker, 1 Ranger and 1 Melee that actually dont suck and any HM mission becomes piece of cake. You mow them down and they cant hit you...is all. That build is just great and please, please, stop comparing with Imbagon, sure Imbagon does +100 armor...but thats not pure damage reduction. And im pretty sure that this build + an imbagon is leet, but dont say it cant reach imbagon's efficiency because it can. And it is not limited to Earshot range. Spirits should not be used as walls (especially the defensive one, given their range, you can keep em way out of the fight) the only moment spirits could be used as walls is when you have to retreat or really need a diversion. And whoever is saying that the offensive spirit spammers hardly do any damage, get some glasses, cause you need some. Its like having a constant AoE on whatever is in LONGBOW range, and it has some of the biggest spike capabilities AT ONCE (for a single slot i mean...im sure you would say that Discord blah blah blah...dont care). It's no wonder spirit spammers NEVER need time to find a group, its because they are efficient and needed, and what if they are easy to use? It's all for the best, you cant say a Cryer or a SS is hard to use anyway. ----Yun Deathbound--- :Agreed, with the June update Spirit Spammers are more than viable. Offensive Spirit Spammers= great damage and defensive ones pack some juicy buffs (plus survivability is better with Armor of Unfeeling). Should be Meta when run with an Imbagon and an MM (for a minion wall).--Mandez 14:28, September 26, 2009 (UTC) ::Uhhhh no minions with this build. 19:15, July 24, 2010 (UTC) already exists Ritual Lord lol...know your builds :I'm aware of the AP Spirit Spammer and other Defensive Spirit builds: This is an attempted merge of all the defensive spirits builds with more elite optionals added such as Reclaim Essence.--Grandmaster Chen 22:22, 18 August 2009 (UTC) already exists + waaay less effective than imbagon :As I've said multiple times this is a 'merge' page of the other defensive spirit builds which are limited in choice. Please read the discussion page, and if you want to bitch about the build why not bitch about it on the original pages such as Build:Rt/A AP Spirit Spammer, cause I really can't be assed tbh. Oh and please sign your comments with the four '~'--Grandmaster Chen 01:49, 1 September 2009 (UTC) ::Less effective than an Imbagon, but, it can be run with an Imbagon for extra defense.--Mandez 01:55, 1 September 2009 (UTC) ::: a new meta? Teambagon? -- 09:49, September 5, 2009 (UTC) Put merge tags up on the existing builds, i cbf to hunt around for them. [[User:Athrun Feya| Athrun]]image:Athrun_Sig.gif[[User Talk:Athrun Feya|'Feya']] 15:02, September 30, 2009 (UTC) Thursday, February 25, 2010 The current mains setup is officially the most perfected build to date. ^_^ -- 11:21, February 26, 2010 (UTC) :I disagree. I suggest 12+1+3 Communing, 9+3 Channeling, 9+3 Spawning. Adding Spirit Siphon to the build. You enough enough energy up keep to spam the spirits as long as you keep the enchant up. The spirits have a long protection range so you can stay back since you will have low health. You should bring Union, Displacement and Shelter. When the enemy is melee or physical use only displacement. Replace it three times then use Twisting. Sometimes the Twisting will not recharge fast enough to spam all three spirits and it would be a waste if you use shelter and the enemy only does 15% damage. If the enemy is an elementalist use only Shelter and keep that up. If the enemy does a lot of small hits like minions or spirits, use only Union. The extra skills can be Armor of unfeeling, a hard rez and another skill of the user's choice, but the user should always stay far back.--UnwokenSpirit 6:16, February 28, 2010 (UTC) ::Did some cleaning up, don't know if the attributes should stay that way -- tÜrae£xy 18:51, February 28, 2010 (UTC) :::This build is way too generic. even for pve. All the elites you have listed make entirely different builds. ··· Danny So Cute 19:15, 28 February 2010 (UTC) ::::They were listed in the original(vetted) build so I didnt want to change them --tÜrae£xy 20:02, February 28, 2010 (UTC) :::::I just nuked them and gave it two similar variants which work the best. --''Chaos?'' -- 20:09, February 28, 2010 (UTC) ::::::You should definetely use Soul Twisting. Insta recharge, cheaper spirits > + few lvls on spirits. Also wanted to make this xD. Also works fine on a heroSebv2727 20:26, February 28, 2010 (UTC) :::::::Ritual Lord allows for strong specs. --''Chaos?'' -- 20:33, February 28, 2010 (UTC) :Can we all agree on these two? Ive tested UnwokenSpirit's Soul Twisting-version and the optimized Ritual Lord version. There is enough of a distinct trade off maximum protection/+/infinite-durational recharge/+/hex support vs. maximum energy/+/limited-instant recharge/+/bar compression. -- 20:25, February 28, 2010 (UTC) ::Twisting is definitely better. The spirits protect the same amount no matter what level. The trick is how long you can keep on up. Higher level will stay alive just a bit longer but you can't replace them fast enough. Twisting will help manage the energy and instant recharge which is what you really need--UnwokenSpirit 5:20, February 28, 2010 (EST) So Did some cleaning up, don't know if the attributes should stay that way -- tÜrae£xy 18:51, February 28, 2010 (UTC) tbh this build is way too generic. even for pve. all the elites you have listed make entirely different builds. ··· Danny So Cute 19:15, 28 February 2010 (UTC) :They were listed in the original(vetted) build so I didnt want to change them --tÜrae£xy 20:02, February 28, 2010 (UTC) :I just nuked them and gave it two similar variants which work the best. --''Chaos?'' -- 20:09, February 28, 2010 (UTC) ST You should definetely use Soul Twisting. Insta recharge, cheaper spirits > + few lvls on spirits. Also wanted to make this xD. Also works fine on a heroSebv2727 20:26, February 28, 2010 (UTC) :Ritual Lord allows for strong specs. --''Chaos?'' -- 20:33, February 28, 2010 (UTC) ::But the 45 secs recharge on not spirits doesn't make it worth. With ST you also won't need Summon spirits, cause you can just make em again:D.Sebv2727 20:48, February 28, 2010 (UTC) :::Ritual Lord shortens recharge. --''Chaos?'' -- 20:49, February 28, 2010 (UTC) ::::Somebody is vandalising the page and removing viable energy managment skills from the variants and speccing 9+3 in channeling for SS wtf? --tÜrae£xy 21:43, February 28, 2010 (UTC) :::::This terrible IP is involved in a cute RV1. --''Chaos?'' -- 21:48, February 28, 2010 (UTC) ::::::I don't know who is changing the page but I added another energy management build, but it was taken off with the rest of the page and instructions. I will try putting it back up. I did put a 9+3 for channeling so that you gain 43% of the spirits energy. Thats means you get 13 energy, so an 8 energy gain each time you use it. As long as you stay far back and don't the hits, your HP shouldn't matter. In the variant I put up I took out Armor of Unfeeling because of how fast the spirits die and the new Spirits will not gain the advatange of Armor of Unfeeling until they wait for the skill to recharge again. I found it faster and simplier to just maintain energy, spam Summon Spirits and quicky replace the spirts when they go down. On HM and on AoE spikes, the spirits go down so fast that by the time you use Armor of Unfeeling and Summon Spirits just once, the spirits are dead. Your energy won't last at that rate. But with the variant you will be able to put it back up continously.UnwokenSpirit 15:59, March 3, 2010 (UTC) Dulled Weapon and Armor of Unfeeling Is it really necessary to mainbar both? I think one should be in the variants, as they both have their pros and cons, but I don't think they are both needed together. [[User:Justing6|'J']][[User:Justing6|'usting']][[User_talk:Justing6|'6']] 19px 04:38, March 3, 2010 (UTC) :the important think about AoU is that reduced the dmg the spirits take when there effects happen(correct me if im wrong) and dulled is really nice since update [[user:Giantshark|'Sharky']]talk 06:46, March 4, 2010 (UTC) The Most Effective Build I will put up the build I found most effective in keeping the spirits up as mentioned before. I was thinking about just completely replacing the current build but I haven't tested how effect dull weapon is so I will not replace it just yet. UnwokenSpirit 15:57, March 3, 2010 (UTC) :Tbh I don't really see the point of dulled weapon. If you want to make the most effective spirits, you'll take superior runes and have low health - so you'll want to stay as far away from combat as possible. The effect of DW has always been lost on me. ST is definitely the best elite for this build because (a lot of people overlook this) it allows you to cast the same spirit 3 times in 15 seconds. It doesn't matter whether it could have a little more health with RL, ST allows you to totally adapt to any situation. Come across a group of lots of casters? Spam shelter every 5 seconds. Lots of melee? Displacement. Ritual lord will summon a spirit with slightly more health (currently it's 'bugged' so it won't give the extra health gain from +4 spawning power) but if you come under heavy fire and it dies, it's gone for about 20 seconds. Not to mention you need extra energy management for those costly rituals - requiring you to spec into channeling and effectively losing the bonus you get form RL. 18:47, March 3, 2010 (UTC) ::I see someone above me has already said this. I feel fairly stupid. 18:52, March 3, 2010 (UTC) By the way, running 1 super rune is bearable, 2 is verging on stupid and 3 is just ridiculous. - ''Athrun''[[User talk:Athrun Feya|''Feya]] - 18:55, March 3, 2010 (UTC) :Why not? The Ritualist can stay even further back then BiPs, HP wont matter. Every time I run this I never get hit because you are even behind the healers. Even if they get hit by a random arrow or spell Shelter will cover for them. You will still have around 350 HP so if you have union up also your only getting hit 20. It will take a good number of hits to kill you and its easier on the monk to heal you also. Sometimes some assassin or warrior monsters get past and attack the spirits but with this build you can replace them with no problem.UnwokenSpirit 19:37, March 3, 2010 (UTC) ::UnwokenSpirit is right - spirit range is over twice the earshot range bubble (i think). You could have 55 hp and it wouldn't matter, you don't need to be near the aggro at all. 21:03, March 3, 2010 (UTC) Variant Even if you don't really like the variant althrun, it should probably be listed here. prof=ritua/any spawning=9+3 communing=12+1+3 channeling=9+3TwistingShelterUnionDisplacementof CreationsiphonSpirits (luxon)optional/build *The main obejective of this variant is to stay far back since the spirits have long range protection. With Boon of Creation and Spirit Siphon you are continously able to put the spirits back up no matter how fast they die. :(As taken from Rt/Any Defensive Spirits) - --Alex ! 20:22, March 3, 2010 (UTC) ::Why take spirit siphon? Just take 16 in communing and 15 in spawning power. This way, BoC + ST will make your binding rituals have a net cost of 4 - totally manageable. Then you can spam Summon Spirits to your heart's content. Take a hard res instead for 'just in case'. 20:52, March 3, 2010 (UTC) :::Idk, I was with a party at Slavers on HM. I was using only Shelter and Union but the spirits died so fast that I needed the spirit siphon to keep up the energy. This way no matter what the situation you can keep them up. I mentioned it before but the level of the spirits doesn't really matter since they give the same protection at any level. I personally like that setup so I thought I would suggest it. (Btw Alex I changed the last skill in the bar as optional as how I posted in the variants originally.)UnwokenSpirit 21:03, March 3, 2010 (UTC) prof=ritua/any spawning=12+3 communing=12+1+3 restoration magic=3TwistingShelterUnionDisplacementof Creationof UnfeelingSpirits (kurzick)pact signet/build This is the one I use - energy never becomes a problem, use armor of unfeeling to buff up a trio of spirits before combat and Death Pact because - well, I'm not sure why I favored that over FoMF, it would probably be better to become a monk and get rebirth, so at least you have a hard res with utility. 18:59, March 5, 2010 (UTC) if going to use in slavers, swap displacement for signet of binding so you can steadily have an army of forever spirits that revive themselves. gimmicy, yes, but sadly useful specially when you're not taking a purely active role anyways (distance vs in combat) ALSO at 15 communing the health loss penaly for using it is pointlessly low. 02:03, March 6, 2010 (UTC) :Wow does SoB actually work? If so, then that's probably a better idea. I'll have to check if SoB works on unsummoned spirits. 09:27, March 6, 2010 (UTC) How about.. Tryptophan Signet? 0 energy and easily maintained -- 06:45, March 7, 2010 (UTC) Hey guys! I wonder, why no1 didnt think of bringing feast of souls? It can serve as perfect outhel in Oh SHIT cases. Will also prove itself useful in DoA/Deep/Urgoz. Just IMO. :I would say its because the extra slot is more useful as a hard rez and an armor of unfeeling. The "Oh S***" moments only happen AFTER your spirits are already dead. As long as you keep up shelter and union those moments usually don't happen so feast of souls probably won't be that useful. UnwokenSpirit 06:47, March 8, 2010 (UTC) Maxed and Combined with Imbagon So, I just ran across this page and wanted you guys to know that I've already been working on this build for a while and have perfected it's use in combination with an imbagon. The combination is something I regularly use in Underworld HM to even neuter Aatxe's into oblivion. However, I don't have an account and really don't feel like writing the page for it myself. If anyone wants the builds/usage to put up here just whisper Blood Red Giant in game. 07:58, March 8, 2010 (UTC) :The page is free for anyone to edit, even if you don't have an account; BUT this build is not written as a team build so I think we should keep it like this. Oh and btw imbagon makes any team strong not only this, that's just because the imbagon is the best pve build ever --tÜrae£xy 11:22, March 8, 2010 (UTC) ::Well, the reason imbagon and defensive spirits work so well together is because they defend against opposite extremes. Imbagon's massive armor + damage reduction party wide provides excellent protection against *large* groups of foes with *medium* damage. Defensive spirits blocking + damage caps provides excellent protection against *medium* groups of foes with *high* damage. Thus, combined they work quite well against any group, including those groups in high end areas such as the example given of Underworld HM. However, as for defensive spirits alone, this build could still use some changes (which I will make given your permission). ::First, I'll list off a few basis for argument. For one, with proper cycling, shelter and union almost never go down before the next cycle. This makes displacement the primary skill for judging the effectiveness of one defensive spirit build versus another. As this spirit spammer should stay back and out of the way of battles, in general, the higher the attributes the better. ::As for Ritual Lord vs. Soul Twisting, with maxed builds, Ritualist Lord only provides a 10% increase in effectiveness while losing 52 energy every 63 seconds (-2.476 e pips), not to mention the minor health loss. Soul Twisting on the other hand costs only 13.8e every 50.4 seconds (-0.821 e pips), which easily regenerates between battles. Thus, in order to get that extra 10% effectiveness from Ritual Lord you are going to have to sacrifice some damage in exchange for maintaining either BR or BiP on the Defensive Spirit player. ::As for adding heals to the build, Displacement loses 30 health (with armor of unfeeling) every time it gets set off. As such, some healing may be useful, but it is much more useful to simply refresh the spirit faster. ::Now, as for refreshing the spirits as quickly as possible (and as such increasing the build's effectiveness), a few things must be taken into account. For one, Armor of Unfeeling must always be placed on the spirits as quickly as possible as it will make the spirits last twice as long. Thus, since Soul Twisting recharges every 15 seconds, and Armor of Unfeeling recharges every 20 seconds, AoU is the limiting factor in refreshing the spirits. With Soul Twisting, the 3 spirits, Armor of Unfeeling, and Boon of Creation (for much needed energy), the spirits can be refreshed every 21 seconds. However, to increase the effectiveness of this build, you can add Serpent's Quickness to reduce the recharge of AoU to 13.4 seconds. If you do all the calculations, this new build will repeat itself every 50.4 seconds with a total of 3 spirit refreshes ever cycle (15 seconds, 14.4 seconds, and 21 seconds). This is essentially a 25% increase in the build's effectiveness, leaving 1 spot left for a resurrect. ::Lastly, I'm using a major rune of spawning instead of a superior as the difference in power is insignificant with shelter and union and non-existing in the case of displacement. ::I know these are quite a few changes to the build, so if you would like me to answer any further questions I'm more than welcome to. I have been working with this build for quite a while. This is not to say that this build cannot be improved on, but rather any further changes will only minor improve the build, if at all. 13:23, March 8, 2010 (UTC) :::On the other hand, I see some reasoning in making this build simpler and not maxing it out in effectiveness. As such, I'll let the rest of the community decide what pieces of information they would like to use, and what they would like to ignore for simplicity. (This is a community project anyway.) As for the build I use for maximum effectiveness: :::Boon of Creation, Soul Twisting, Union, Shelter, Displacement, Serpent's Quickness, Armor of Unfeeling, Flesh of my Flesh :::12+1+3 Communing, 12+2 Spawning, 3 Wilderness. 13:28, March 8, 2010 (UTC) ::::SQ fails compared to ghostly haste in this situation, less att point spread[[user:Giantshark|'Sharky']]talk 05:05, March 12, 2010 (UTC) :::::Whoops, perhaps you meant Ghostly Haste fails compared to Serpent's Quickness? Ghostly Haste only affects spells - not binding rituals - whilst SQ affects all skills. Though, tbh, both are pointless. 20:51, March 18, 2010 (UTC) Ritual Lord + Spirit Siphon Should it be noted that you could counter the high energy costs of using Ritual Lord by taking Spirit Siphon? The spirits will be allot more powerful if you can manage the energy properly? '''F'lame_'D' 07:14, March 12, 2010 (UTC) :Universal rule: energy -> skills. Not really. --''Chaos?'' -- 08:55, March 12, 2010 (UTC) :How exactly will the spirits be stronger? You'd need to put points into channeling to use spirit siphon efficiently, nulling the effect of +4 from Ritual Lord. 12:18, March 16, 2010 (UTC) ::I actually posted the build on this page with spirit siphon. You will need spirit siphon most only in dungeons or places with an unusual amount of large mobs because you are forced to replace them so fast that twisting's 15 second recharge is not fast enough UnwokenSpirit 05:04, March 27, 2010 (UTC) :::Neither is Ritual Lord's 60 seconds recharge time fast enough either; without sufficient synergy of Bonders and Imbagons, any mob large enough will literally destroy this build. Lifespan vs. energy vs. recharge is a juggling act; only now thansk to RL/ST, I dont feel like "bonder without the proverbial blessed signet". -- 02:06, March 29, 2010 (UTC) Dulled Weapon weaker than weakness And costs much less energy/less recharge. Cuilan 00:48, March 16, 2010 (UTC) :Then add it to mainbar (or have a necro bring) at cost of Spirits' strength; the weakness condition's damage reduction lowers base damage multiplicity however, while dulled weapon lowers it additionally. -- 02:10, March 29, 2010 (UTC) Meta Some unregistered user added a meta tag. I don't want to 1RV so was wondering if it should be taken off or kept on. Its voted as a "Good" but I personally think its worth a "Great". Used this to VQ with absolutely no healer and barely anyone had self heals (PUG), it kept everyone alive. UnwokenSpirit 06:33, April 16, 2010 (UTC) Functionality and Minions Would having the PvE version of the three protective spirits effect only party members (instead of allies) to allow better minion/spirit synergy be considered a nerf or a boon? --Falconeye 18:52, April 25, 2010 (UTC) :A buff, overall, although I can imagine in some missions where you have to protect certain allies (non party members), it would be a nerf. [[User:St. Michael|'ــѕт.']][[user_talk:St. Michael|'мıкε']] 00:16, April 26, 2010 (UTC) ::Shame there isnt an option to deliberately "nerf" our skills whenever certain builds/party/hero composition stand to benefit from it, especially if said nerf would reduce the cost of said skill. Even an option to deliberately nerf some elite skills into a "non-elite" version would be interesting... sort of a build in anti-feature. Mmm... what if Guild Wars 2 had this feature, even going so far as the option to turn most skills into a buffed "elite-version" of itself? --Falconeye 18:42, May 16, 2010 (UTC) :::RoF and Life Sheath come to mind. Or Frenzy and PR. Interesting concept, tbh. -- Jai 02:39, August 8, 2010 (UTC) Sad bar on Main page I love my ST rit but that skill bar is pretty sad. Sup Runes? x2? lol prof=ritua/any spawning=12+2 communing=12+1+2 restoration=3TwistingShelterUnionDisplacementGiftof CreationWas Lee Saof My Flesh/build Spirit Walk is pointless when making new ones every 15sec. With spirits gift I can stand with the casters and remove conditions + heal(even spirits) some and offers a cover for Boon of Creation. Energetic is obvious since you wont have to split. The only real optional would be the rez slot. Death Pact Sig is all right but i still prefer FoMF to prevent over aggroing noobies from getting me killed. Otherwise you can drop Armor of Unfeeling here so every other set of spirits is covered. The real boon of that skill is keeping minions around. Also dropping a rank or 2 in communing and picking up Serpents Quickness isnt horrible but 90% of the time unneeded. Dropping Displacemnt for an extra backup charge and picking an alt skill isnt a crime either since this one spirit drops rediculously fast and in general can be covered by regualr block skills common in play by most teams anyhow. I used this build in BLA with an mm and had zero probs even with all the npcs. And yes dulled weapon is bad. The only thing you should focus on is spamming spirits, nothing more. Jlryan 03:09, September 15, 2010 (UTC)